A video interview with Madita by Shiva of the Loving Centre of Transformation in Ahmedabad, for his Love Channel.
Welcome to Loving! Today, we have Madita Dickhut, a German hypnotherapist, NLP trainer. Osho had given his last meditation [Reminding Yourself of the Forgotten Language of Talking to the Body/Mind] to her… her voice… and to all of us.
Madita, thank you very much for coming to Loving, and on the Love Channel.
It has been a great pleasure to be here. I love the time I spent here. It’s been ten days now, and I’m happy to tell you whatever you like to know.
So, please tell us more about yourself, your life.
I have been working at the university and have done an experiential school in Germany, and then decided to travel to India. I took a break and visited the only sannyasin (Osho disciple) I knew in Pune – and so I came to Pune. I didn’t know about meditation and… guru… nothing. And then I stayed there a bit and listened to Osho and I fell in love – I think. Because I just had never in my life… and being a German, being trained so much and working at the university, I was very identified with my intellect, my mind; and I never met anybody who was so intelligent from my perception; witty, funny, humorous, poetic. So I decided that I want to learn from him – and I stayed in Pune.
Which year was it? The first time you came?
This was… I came in 1978.
I was 4 years old [laughing].
I was a little older [laughing]. So, and since then I feel (that) I really want to live what I feel I have understood from Osho. And my work, I feel, is a practical application of what I have understood and what has been, for my own life, so very helpful. I just know (that) to live a conscious life works better.
Right okay… wow. And to begin with, we (just) completed a series of workshops you have given to people. Would you please tell us: how was your experience here at Loving?
It has been all the way through: Loving! The way I was welcomed, just with such an open heart and with so much care… so I feel ‘loving’. And the goal, or can I say the mission or what the centre is about, is really lived here and the people who came to my groups – I did three groups – they really came with an open heart, a willingness to learn, a willingness to look at themselves. And it has been a pleasure and an enrichment for me to work here.
And for me as a facilitator, in the role of a trainer or facilitator, I got all the support I need to do good work in a very loving, caring way – because I feel action speaks more than words. And how the Loving centre supported my work and me, has been Love in Action! So, I had a very good time.
Alright! I really want to ask you so many things. I heard you were in Pune One and Oregon (Rajneeshpuram) and you have travelled all over the world with your work… So, let me glance in my book… yes!
I never had a chance to meet Osho personally (when he was) in his body. Please tell us about Osho. How was he? What was your (experience with him). Please tell us about Osho.
Well, as I said, when I came I didn’t know anything about ‘going inside’ – where please? – (about) meditation. I didn’t know. And then I went. While I was there, visiting my friends, I came to like the sannyasins, the people who were there. There was an openness and cheerfulness and light-heartedness which I noticed and which felt beautiful. So I also wanted to come to know him and listen to him, and of course me, being so identified with my mind, my mental capabilities… I was sitting there in the beginning listening and thinking…
And yet there was… It reached me, my heart got reached by him and then more and more what I felt in his presence inside me, everything seemed to align itself, you know? Whatever drama I felt was going on inside me or I had experienced in my life – and (in) his presence – it aligned itself and a clarity came and a peace.
And this is what I can describe the best: that in his presence there was no fear, no fear! I do believe that this was a transmission of his state of trust and being at peace with life, with the mystery of life and with all what wants to happen in life, and the total acceptance and also his freedom to see life as a mystery. It was no obligation to fulfil our expectations, but to go along with this, and honour it. And this transmitted as an experience of ‘no fear’!
So I, not knowing about meditation, not having done meditation before, experienced that I could sit, become very quiet – and I could sit still pretty much from the beginning, very soon – while sitting with him and let it in and receive, which was a surprise for me.
And did you have a chance to meet him personally at darshans, or sannyas (initiations)?
Yes, all the time. When we came – because I had to leave again and work and then come again – we had a ‘welcome darshan’. He welcomed you and said, Welcome! and asked if you wanted to do any groups. So we had him directly as our coach and counsellor, because he suggested groups to you. And I did them all. And every single one of them, whether it was vipassana – sitting silently – or it was encounter or all these catharsis groups to let go of stored-up old emotions and memories, created clarity and helped me to come to know myself better.
And we could see him when we left. So he would say, “Go and help my people there” and he said, “Come back again, stay longer!”
Okay… Wow…! And were there any special incidents, meetings or dialogues you had with him which you remember? Any personal talk with him?
What he said to me, every time (I was) coming from my country having worked again… And when I spoke about (having) conflicts inside because my family thought this was very strange, me suddenly going all the time to India – and at this time wearing a mala – but basically before I could ask him (anything), he always said to me, “You are doing very good, Madita!” So I thought: it’s okay.
And one time something very amazing happened and I don’t really know how he… This was a time when he did this work, energy work with mediums. But you know, also after groups we could come to him. After a group I came but I was sitting alone in front of him and he gave me shaktipat and I just sank back and half an hour later I woke up out of deep meditation, deep trance – I don’t know – energy transmission. But I woke up. They had (laid) me down. I was still lying there. It felt amazing and beautiful, but what happened inside, I don’t know…
Oh yes, and then later – I had been studying psychology and pedagogy, and then I had been training as a hypnotherapist. This was then, about… I don’t know, six, seven months before he left the body. I was chosen to develop the Talking to the Body/Mind meditation. I was chosen by him through the Multiversity, to develop – under his guidance – this meditation, which is a healing meditation.
Tell us more how this process is so unique and how it can help the modern man today?
It is a healing meditation and it helps people to get in contact with themselves. Osho said, kind of (as) the theme of this meditation: people need to be taught – he said ‘taught’ otherwise he was saying: they need to experience, they need to learn – but he said they need to be ‘taught’ to make friends with themselves and that’s what this meditation is all about.
Then he gave me guidance, I got notes from him which were given to me by his personal secretary and what he wanted me to say in it. And then he decided it should be seven days, one hour daily, and how it was structured. And he wanted hypnosis. And this was the first and only time that he said hypnosis should be included in a guided meditation, in a meditation which is a guided meditation. And I think this was also one of the reasons that it came to me – because I know how to do hypnosis. That’s what I then developed and that’s what he approved of.
So he gave you a few guidelines to include in this meditation?
Yes, he did. Also in one of the notes he said to be aware that modern man has lost the contact to the body. The modern man is to identified with his mind, with his mental processes. And that modern man only feels the body when it’s sick, otherwise he has forgotten to listen to the body’s messages and that the body basically tells us in which situations to stay, which ones to leave, what to eat what not to eat and (when) to stop. So I built this in and because…
I do know, when you really listen to the body you never need to do a diet, because when you are in contact with your body and its messages, it tells you exactly when you have eaten enough, tells you exactly when you have (been drinking) enough!
Osho would never say drink or don’t drink any alcohol, but he says (that) when you listen to the body you know exactly when it’s enough. He didn’t mention alcohol then, but I suggest that now – in (regard to) this meditation – when you listen to the body you know what is ‘enough’.
So. this can help in addictions?
It helps in addictions, yes, I (would) say – and this is the hypnotic part. If there is a habit for which it is time to let it go – because it is just not friendly towards yourself – you can let it go now, allowing the body to be natural and healthier – then yes!
I am going in a trance with this…
And I know that modern man… You asked why it is relevant for the modern man. The modern man is so stressed and stress is created in the mind and stress is fear: not being good enough, comparing himself/herself to other people, competing – and stress is fear! And Osho says – and this is the first quote that I play in this meditation – total relaxation is buddha consciousness. So I know (that) nothing beautiful in life happens in stress.
First you said when you were sitting with Osho there was no fear, and now you say stress is fear and this meditation can help remove stress and fear…
Oh yes, oh yes… and only then, when there is no fear, healing can happen.
If you’re very sick and you are very scared, also the medicines you take, I believe, cannot have the good effect. So I also suggest in this meditation – that’s again the hypnotic part – (that) should you have to take any medication right now, your unconscious mind can help your body to use this medication in the most helpful, appropriate and healing way for you!
So this can be used when someone is sick and on medicines or insulin or anything. So, it can help health, addictions.
How about addictions of behaviour, or feeling bad or miserable, or feeling down or depressed?
This is an interesting question because since I had the honour to be chosen to do that, because I know hypnosis and I’m an NLP trainer, I had written to Osho (about) some NLP processes – and NLP basically is hypnosis. It’s a connection with the unconscious mind and getting in contact with the resources. I had written to Osho a different NLP process which I know (how) to guide; he chose one and this I built into this meditation.
I simplified it – in NLP we believe that every human being has all the resources they need already inside themselves – and so it’s not about improving. It’s just getting in contact with what you have already; and the body has healing powers. So the body knows how to heal, so many people do heal without even having to take medication, without having to do therapy, any form. In this guided meditation, through my suggestions, I activate the healing powers that every human being has.
This is very important, this is very precious to know because many people do not know about this last meditation. And to me it is very special that you had been selected, chosen by Osho to do this in your voice, and…
Yes, this meditation is very precious and dear to my heart. And I’m always happy when I get invited to do this – like I did in Loving – because I want to support people to have a life without fear, to let go of their stress and live in a state of trust. Also trust… trust includes trusting yourself and not all the time thinking, I have to work hard, I have to improve more and more, I’m not good enough; because this is a disease nowadays. People continuously have the feeling they have to do more more more to improve themselves while… – and this I have learned from Osho – when they learn to relax they get in contact with their best resources and can also live their best talents in the most beautiful way.
You have been sharing it with people for the last 25-30 years…
Yes, it started… Osho left the body (in) 1990 (when) I started running the meditation – first it was only me. I started running it half a year or five months before he left the body. He took great interest in it. I kept getting notes (with questions about) how it was going. And then I asked him… and then again and again he said, it’s about helping people to relax and be their own best friends, and treating themselves as their own best friend.
So, since 1989 I’m running it. And then in the Osho Meditation Resort in Pune I was training women – he wanted only women to run this meditation. Yes, I don’t really know why but that’s what he wanted! So that’s what we do. I have been training many women, now they are still training it in the Resort. I do trainings, I train, yes, and I hope to train next year a group of women here at Loving.
You really want to spread this meditation, empowering women to learn and get trained to do it…
Of course I do, because it’s really so helpful and the feedback I have been getting that people felt this meditation enhanced their healing process. There is also a CD with the whole process on it. Like now – I just did the process (here) – and we gave it to them. It is so helpful! And for women! Nowadays women also, they stress themselves. They want to be really good. They often have a double source (of stress): trying to be so good at home; mother, wife, family, and working! This meditation helps them to relax, to trust themselves – and this is so important – and (it) empowers them.
Osho, also… I read and heard that he says there are three pillars of his work: Therapy, Hypnosis and Meditation. What do you say?
Yes, yes. I do understand that. Also from my experience of living such a long time in his ashram, which then became a Meditation Resort – he wanted that it gets this different name. I do know (that) we have so many bottled-up feelings, tears we didn’t cry when it was actually time to express the feeling of sadness and hurt, anger that we didn’t express when it was actually happening to us, all bottled-up inside. So there are first the groups and meditations. Also I believe the AUM meditation does that, (with the) catharsis where old bottled-up emotions – that might even make us sick because they are still in our limbic system – can be released.
This is the therapy part. It’s like a bit… and this is Osho… As I understand (it) and remember him saying, it’s like cleaning your house of all (the) junk and garbage and rubbish – something is rotting away and you don’t want this in your house. So therapy cleans the house and then with hypnosis we prepare the mind for meditation.
And actually, this is interesting… He has been speaking a lot about dropping the mind and then, I think one and a half to two years before he left the body, he spoke about befriending the mind. This was also the time when hypnosis was emphasized in his ashram, in his resort.
He said (that) befriending the mind, and when the mind understands that a life in consciousness just works better – in friendship, in love, in creativity, in aloneness – it is intelligent enough to go beyond itself and support a life in meditation. So we are doing – and I’m doing my best to do exactly that – to befriend the mind, to live a life in awareness and consciousness and relaxation, which means without fear.
So first of all I find out, with all my respect, how people are thinking. I help them to become clear what their values are. That means, I always work with them by asking, what is valuable to you? how do you want to live? what is at this moment in your life troubling you? I know they come for therapy sessions to me because they are upset about something; something is burdening them, something is troubling them. So I ask them and they tell me.
And then I help them through questions – this I have learned. Also through creating trust, because (it is) only when they trust the situation, being with me, that they open up and really tell me what is troubling them, what is paining them. Then I help them to get clear what is actually valuable for them, what kind of a life they would like to live. And then I help them to do that.
Now coming back to yourself. How does it feel to be someone chosen by Osho for his last meditation and giving trainings. How does it feel to you, as Madita?
Oh, it’s an honour [both laugh] and it is… totally loving. I felt by me… being this human being that is me, being chosen to develop it under his guidance, that (he) was working on me. I can of course only teach what I have and what I know (about how) to live myself. So, meditating, being with him in his presence, and then doing so many groups, coming to know myself and then developing this meditation under his guidance has helped me enormously to catch myself when I get stressed – and stress always means fear.
I have learned to stop and to look: what am I scared of at the moment or what am I trying to prove? I stop that and come back to my heart. Because he said (that) true peace is only in the heart.* And I find (that) when I’m in my heart, I relax, I don’t need to prove anything and I am in contact with my own resources and also to my skills. I’ve learned a skill with hypnosis, hypnotherapy and (how) to apply that.
Do you also think that the way you were helped, it will also work for people in India, women in India? This will help them?
I certainly do! I have seen it, I just did this meditation here in Loving – and there were men and women. We did it in the evening, so they came (after) their working day. They were very happy with it.
In the beginning I explain what it is about. Every day I play a quote of Osho speaking about the body, honouring the body, saying, when you are in contact with your body you are the closest to nature, you are the closest to god. It worked beautifully for them. We (ended) it yesterday and they were all very happy with it.
Even if someone doesn’t have a close contact with Osho, can this technique still work? For people who just want to help their body?
Oh yes! It does. But… it starts and ends with the mantra Osho. Osho wasn’t much into mantras but in this case… In the beginning this word helps them to relax. At the end I use it to get them out of this deep state of relaxation – which is actually a trance state – but he wanted me to explain to them what it means;
‘O’ means with deep respect, love and gratitude and ‘SHO’ means multi-dimensional expansion of consciousness.
People are okay with saying that and it’s fine. And when I’m somewhere… once I was invited to run this meditation in a company because the boss liked it so much. I gave them the choice to say ‘Osho’ or just say the word ‘Yes’. Because I know the heart has only one word and that’s yes – yes to yourself, yes to your life, yes to this situation – and some did that. So I said (to use the mantra) Osho, (or) Yes… Yes… and then it works just fine!
And lastly, I would like to ask, what are your goals or what are you looking forward in life, in future years?
[laughing] I love my life… I would very much like to continue this work; it gives me great joy. And what I feel – this I can’t say any better – (continue) this practical application of what I have experienced and learned through being with Osho. It is so helpful for people; it helps them lead a life with more consciousness, in a state of meditation which is relaxation and (is) so a more poetic life (that) makes friendship possible, love possible, and this heals and gives me much joy.
You are so welcome. It’s a joy to speak about that.
Thank you so much for sharing all your experiences and what you have received, because many people do not know about these things and I wish, I hope that this goes to people who need this.
Thank you for giving me a possibility to speak about all of that. It’s a joy for me. And for all of you I wish you a happy life!
*) Peace in the Heart
“There are areas in the body, particular centers, where particular feelings can be created consciously. Between the two armpits is the heart center, and the heart center is the source of all the peace that happens to you, whenever it happens. Whenever you are peaceful, the peace is coming from the heart.”
Osho, Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, Vol 2, Ch 32 – Book of Secrets, 71. Forget the Periphery
Madita is a hypnotherapist and NLP master and trainer. She uses the NLP processes and tools to guide consciousness towards meditation and mindfulness. devanlp.com
Shiva (Dr. Ronak Gandhi) is a founder of Loving, an Osho Meditation facilitator, AUM leader, Zen counselling instructor. He is also a medical doctor, holistic health practitioner, and TEDx Speaker. lovingworld.in
- The Forgotten Language of Talking to the Body/Mind – The last meditation created by Osho – a guided meditation process to heal body/mind – with quote from Osho
- App for Osho Talking to Your Body/Mind – Osho Reminding Yourself of the Forgotten Language of Talking to Your Body/Mind now as an app – with quote from Osho